Downgrading levels is something that would only happen if you're taking huge hits against it. A level 10 Structure has a lot of hit points and if its taking 20% of it on one turn then yeah it might be downgraded. Whoever is hitting you can destroy it outright in a few turns apparently .

Ok about this whole downgrading of units...

I am starting to get worried about it. Some units take thousands and thousands of turns to upgrade. Then you use them in combat and bang... time to spend again thousands of turns to upgrade them. This is not trivial because while they are being upgraded, such units are planet bound (they cannot be transported as you cannot load a unit which is being upgraded into a hangar). If we basically want to have low level units fighting each other now and then ok but ... if you really want to go with the combat results in downgrade mechanic you should reconsider the upgrade times for units.

Question. Right now, if I have a level 10 unit that takes 90% damage and I voluntarily downgrade it, does is become a level 9 with full hitpoints?

If you capture but don't own, who's logistics does it count against? Is the real owner stuck with a logistics cost that they can't dump while someone else occupies the structure?

If no one is responsible it becomes exploitable. I yield a factory for you and you build one for me and then we capture them and the don't count against our logistics cap.

For that reason I suggest that if someone captures it they own it. But maybe you want to do away with scrapping and just allow downgrades with a cool down.

But I still think occupation should block queing up construction of new units. You can't hire new soldiers while your surrounded.

Since we have pivoted to the subject of attacking ground structures, perhaps there should be a mechanic that shuts down production and the ability to que new upgrades and construction when attacking forces occupy the same square. Otherwise the defender, who already has the advantage of of defensive structures, just needs to hold on while they build new units.

Shutting down production would also give you a reason to think about your force distribution. The most effective strategy right now, I think, would be to clump all of your forces together and attack your enemy's strongholds one at a time, taking them down like dominos. And his best strategy would be to do the same thing, trying to cripple you before you cripple him rather than engage you in a protracted defensive battle that slowly decimates the population of your home city.

But, if an occupying force can shut down production, if becomes a valid strategy to divide your force to shut down your oponent's economy; and then divide it further to protect your own structures from being shut down by unopposed level 1 Infantry units.
edited by Hutton on 4/27/2017

Applied to all combat, I can see some sort of reduction in total firepower when your 500 size force is attacking a size 20 defender, but man not only is that counter-intuitive but combat is complex already =)

The hangar is what allows infantry to attack ships, in space, via attack shuttles, Your defending hangar is not needed when the attackers are using assault shuttles and blowing in through the walls.

If you want the "I am defending inside a star base" bonus for the defender, He's already got it. The star base itself size will draw fire away from the units in the hangar. it also shoots back, at infantry and commandos. It would probably be a new unit with its own attack values. Something that looks like a beefed up version of the Fortification, as in more firepower and not just a defensive structure. But it would actually be a "Ship" with ship upgrades.

The post above is me. I must have timed out while writing it. The sentence that reads "Let's say, for example, that a carrier has hanger space of 100. You board it with a level 10 (X100) Infantry unit." Should have said, "Let's say, for example, that an ORBITAL has hanger space of 100. You board it with a level 10 (X100) Infantry unit."

I guess I agree that artifacts shouldn't be so useful in an orbital attack that their use becalmed ubiquitous. I think the idea of surprising a defender that has put all their eggs in space supremacy with a Longdoor is pretty cool though. My thinking was a Longdoor is an AX research item. And how often is someone going to spend a week of research and hundreds of millions of dollars on upgrading an Infantry unit.

And that using the gravity sleds to attack without the fleet engaging would be at the cost of your infantry getting cut to pieces on the way in. For the situation where you had a lot of infantry but a weak fleet. Perhaps with the additional effect of every unit that doesn't fit in the orbital experiences a Beachhead critical hit every turn until the attackers on the inside have taken enough casualties for them to squeeze inside.

What if you make it upgrade like a mix of ground units and space units. Upgrading increases size and logistics like a ground unit, but you choose from a menu whether firepower, armor or hanger space gets bumped up with that level.


I propose that both defenders and attackers can only put units that fit into the hanger space on the station at a given time. They are not sharing the space, they can both fill it. And if more than one corp is defending or attacking they can both use the hanger space separately. Incentive to operate a station with allies. Attackers could swap out a unit that is damaged but will be giving the defenders a turn to push the capture bar without opposition. Defenders could swap out, but will become the attackers next turn if they don't leave a unit behind to hold the fort.

What about my question about Grav-sleds and Longdoors from the top of this page?

And what about the suggestion that ground units, (not just star-bases), drop levels when their hitpoints drop below the max for a lower level?

No, it's a fair point. Maybe the Terran Federation should occupy those slots around earth. I'd rather see the community self regulate, though. Doc was talking about Guilds cooperating to finance stations. I think it would make the most sense if most starbases were finaced with taxes so planet leaders would usually run them. Going back to what got this conversation started, the main long term benefit of having a stationm, when you weren't actively at war with forces on the planet below, is it would ensure control of at least one quadrant, thus preventing a blockade of your planet. Maintaining control of the skies might become an important campaign promise.

I'll just leave this here...

"DOOM CANNONS" -Doctor Dread

I think megastructures should require components and raw materials to build them.
edited by cyb0rg on 4/25/2017

Yes to taking multiple turn to dismantle the station. Maybe even multiple turns for each level. I think that's a better solution than the old Corp retaining ownership, for the repair cost reason Vulpex mentions.

I'm thinking of some kind of "Capture Progress Bar" Almost like another Hit Point bar that if you deplete then you capture the installation. But that gets tricky with multiple players trying to capture. Perhaps you can attack "To Capture" just like you can attack "To Raid" and it puts your Corp damage against this Capture threshold. 5 corps can try to capture at once. Once the capture threshold is reached the Corp with the most "Capture Damage" takes the place. Attacking to Capture causes half damage....

That's getting convoluted, Scrap that idea...

To capture an installation you have to attack with "Capture Flag" which doesn't reduce any damage except maybe against the installation, and after you clear all enemies out then your attack on the installation becomes a capture that takes some time based on how much firepower you have against it and the size of the place....

Not sure about that either.....

Hmm so how about this Whatever units are set "To Capture" do not add anything to the combat itself, although they take damage, they are effective damage zero, there damage is instead applied to a capture threshold, which can be literally be another gauge of the units max hit points.. Once captured it changes sides immediately(?) I would go with that IF we made it so the amount of Capture damage you are doing is reduced by how healthy the installation is. If its 100% then you are 10% effective. if its at 20% hit points you are probably 90% effective with your capture damage. That makes it 10x harder to "Capture" a healthy station but viable to capture one that is almost destroyed, but you have to essentially attack all its hit points again. You can switch your orders on other units to "Capture" as it gets lower If you're going for a capture. You can also send in a huge fleet of commandos doing zero actual damage and try to Take a healthy installation but it would have to be quite large, take a while AND you're gonna get pounded by any other forces there the entire time. Once you actually take a installation like this, its probably badly damaged and any other corps in the fight can probably take it back from you pretty easy also.

Perhaps the units you are using to capture get "destroyed" to man the place. how many units you lose in this way determines how much Capture Damage is immediately replaced. If you capture with a single level 1 commando in the end. You will lose that commando but have only 100 Capture Damage left on the installation, someone else can take it from you easily until it "heals" . If you use a level 10 commando and take it. The Capture Damage will be restored by their hit points which is probably thousands. Ships can be used to capture but not actually take the place. If there are no commandos or infantry to "absorb" to man the station then you cant actually take it even though the Capture Damage is at zero,.

To avoid the "Take and Salvage immediately for 2 billion" problem, capturing an installation is not a permanent thing(?) . Its still owned by the original corporation and salvaging it will give them the money. Also, perhaps you cannot salvage the installation outright you literally have to salvage back all the levels to 0. That will take some time?

With some refinement I think this might work. Sounds fun fighting over a station which then goes to a capture war. =)

You mentioned making orbital structures capturable. I'm assuming that Capture would be a new order type or a modifier to the Attack order. I suggest making ground units a requirement for capturing Orbital structures. And that only foot soldiers, like Infantry and Commandos should be good at it. (By the way, if your not already locked into by the art you have commissioned, may I recommend Combat Engineers and Cyber-Commandos instead of Commandos and Cyber-Assasins, given that that unit type specializes in attacking structures).

This might justify a new Marine unit. (For the benefit of anyone that doesn't already know this, prior to the twentieth century Marines were ship's soldiers whose primary mission was to fight and repel boarding actions. The emphasis changed to establishing beachheads during WWII, but the term marine would be acurately applied to soldiers specializing in EVA and corridor to corridor fighting).

The way I see it, you should be able to blow up or soften up a station with your fleet, but you'll need boots on the hull to capture it.

As far as support from ground units supporting blockade running, I was actually thinking more about the Military Structures helping out. (And maybe just to contribute firepower, not absorb damage). But Doc has mentioned that some ground units can fight in space and some can't. Like, I think he said commandos can, but infantry can't. And the description of some of the special fighter units in the game say that they can fight in space, from which I infer that regular fighters can't. So this would be an opportunity for that advantage to be put to use, because it doesn't look like it serves a purpose right now.

Blockades... now you are onto something...

It actually can have several applications including for instance the fact that city rulers could decide that certain goods are illegal to buy and/or sell in their city and blockade anyone moving that stuff (a great way to manipulate markets that) I think the idea of a star fortress blockading a whole planet might be a bit over the top but it is something interesting overall. You could even build specialized blockade running ship if for instance your chances of running a blockade depended on your ship's speed and size or something like that (so a scout could have a reasonable chance of getting through but that Battleship? Not so much)

For development at a later date - it seems a bit silly to have spaceship combat and ground forces fighting each other as they do now... I mean really? Infantry with rifles shooting away and a monolith in orbit? Or artillery and tanks for that reason doing the same :p (I won't forget that one Dread)

Ohhh.... warp gates....

To be honest that is probably the only way to have any kind of meaningful commerce if the galaxy really starts to open up. Even fast scouts will take significant amounts of time flying around the corners of the galaxy.

Space elevators, I can't image what practical in game use we can make for those. Once you have anti gravity on spaceships, elevators aren't very viable anymore. I did have an idea of Military bases allowing ground units to make a "Moon Shot" and jump to a neighboring moon. Not sure if thats very useful either.

...

I was really trying to think of some kind o mechanic that makes taking territory worth something. Like you can militarily go into a city and somehow hold it for cash. Give military guys some kind of war game to play that isn't simply kill everything. I might make the Pirate factions do something like that. They walk into towns and hold them and extort some kind of tax on everyone. Perhaps make ruler elections run mainly on military power at the location. Just ideas.

Ring worlds and Dyson Spheres.