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badmaw Posts: 80
5/6/2017
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I can't post there anymore, I really don't know what's with all these limits.
I posted enough for you to understand why I need the changes. The game is too slow for me and unbalanced. But my reasons doesn't matter, you don't need to agree with them.
Just tell me how the changes affects you or the game negatively and I drop it.
Let's say we don't have logistic limits. I can have a distribution center in every city and instead on changing routes every single day for an hour I make 200 transports and set each one to get to a city and forget about them.
How that affects you.
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Doctor Dread Administrator Posts: 1478
5/6/2017
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badmaw wrote:
I can't post there anymore, I really don't know what's with all these limits.
I posted enough for you to understand why I need the changes. The game is too slow for me and unbalanced. But my reasons doesn't matter, you don't need to agree with them.
Just tell me how the changes affects you or the game negatively and I drop it.
Let's say we don't have logistic limits. I can have a distribution center in every city and instead on changing routes every single day for an hour I make 200 transports and set each one to get to a city and forget about them.
How that affects you.
You have to limit the size of the players otherwise a single player can take over the entire game and the game is over in 3 months. This is not Monopoly or a board game that has a winner after 45 minutes of play.. The logistic limits make it realistic for you to perhaps take control of a planet but not much more, allowing all the other players to migrate to another planet pretty cheaply if needed. Or to another solar system is one gets bad enough. You can't really operate in a remote system unless you bring your industry with you, but with no limit, you can just make more bases where you need to after locking down an entire planet and kicking everyone out.. If you have unlimited logistics you can simply expand forever with fleets sizes in the thousands that no one can stop. You're trying to make a game with a single winner after 3 months in a game meant to be played with a 1000 people for years =)
You can make 100 accounts and try to take over earth, but you cant vote for the rulers who will destroy you in certain votes. If you want to make 100 accounts and pay me $500 a month to try to take over Sol System, I won't stop you =)
Why are you changing routes every day? Have you seen how other players are playing? Make ONE transport that goes around to all 25 cities dumping 200 product. By the time he makes a lap the demand would of gone back up. Use the Load Save orders to save the important loop and modify it. Set the sell amount to be 1/10nth the volume where your factories are selling. Because that will keep the demand steady. Demand goes up 0.1 a turn. If you sell the entire volume it goes down 1 full point, if you sell 1/10nth the volume it goes down 0.1 and balances against the demand increase of 0.1,.
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badmaw Posts: 80
5/7/2017
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I don't want to make it possible for a corporation to dominate the game.
On the contrary, I am afraid that I'm not be able to make enough money to survive.
A had a conversation with Evil and I realized that this game is not a ill balanced and severely limited version of what I want but a perfectly fine version of what other people want.
So I'll be more careful for now on as I definitely don't want to break something that works for others.
I'll let the other 3 accounts die because they just multiply my sorrow and I get nothing in return.
Thank you for your patience in explaining to me.
And please when you have the time make the scope of the game clearer in the guide because you want a certain kind of people here and you may miss them if people get the wrong impression.
"Why are you changing routes every day?"
Because you make more money where the demand is larger. Why would I want to sell 200 with $250 and 200 with $150 when I can sell 400 with $240? As long as the gain will justify the effort I'll change the routes because more money equals more shields and cannons for me and my people.
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Vulpex Posts: 390
5/7/2017
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How much money are you making Bad and how much do you think you need to make?
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badmaw Posts: 80
5/7/2017
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I have like a half of a billion cash and the company is worth like 1 billion.
I think I need to make enough to support the military. I don't know how much is this but now, as I understand more and more of this game, it probably doesn't matter. Because alone I will never have enough military power to protect myself. So I'll make some alliances and get used to idea that I'll never be completely safe.
My problem was that I had the wrong premises. Of course things had no sense. Now that I understand the premises of the game, I start to understand why some things are this way. I won't necessary like the game more but at least now I don't want to "improve" it anymore. Which is a big win for you, I guess I was very annoying.
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Vulpex Posts: 390
5/7/2017
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Thanks for the info - but my question was a little different - how much money do you make per tick (total income) and how much do you need? I want to explain how i do things which may help you get better at all this but income levels and goals are important.
Feel free to send a message if you prefer.
edited by Vulpex on 5/7/2017
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badmaw Posts: 80
5/7/2017
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Thank you for the offer, I appreciate it. I can send a message, but I guess these posts will help people understand the game and play better.
Right now I'm making like 500k, but after I redo the routes it's over 1M which will drop to 500k and so on. I went into negatives when I didn't update the routes for 2-3 days.
My goal is to pay my defense. This means the front sum that is not worrying me because when I have the money I buy and when I don't I don't. But there's the upkeep so I can't buy too much force.
And maybe even a fast and strong mobile unit to chase the Raiders and others like them.
So I don't know how much this needs, plus I don't know how often I have to rebuild as the attacks are not regular.
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badmaw Posts: 80
5/7/2017
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Expenses:
| Prod: -363,350 | Military: -499,950 | Storage: -231,243 |
I will optimize the storage to spend less on it, this is not a problem.
Production and military probably I could spend less as I optimize the production and choose more efficient units.
These numbers are not problems. The problem is that I surely wont earn much more whatever I do but is sure as hell that I can spend much much more.
That is a new thing for me in a game, to spend less instead of earning more. I don't know if it's a good thing to learn. In real life it surely is, but I come here to do what I cannot do in my real life, not to have a sadder life. 
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Vulpex Posts: 390
5/7/2017
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Ok here are a few thoughts.
First - your storage costs are insane. It should not be more than about 100k at any given time. Get rid of those stockpiles and stop producing the stuff you cannot sell.
Prod and military costs are what I'd consider normal - though you should be able to afford a much bigger military with your production.
Here are my figures for comparison:
Production - 540k - but it's misleading as my artifact production alone costs me 150k
Military - 2.5 million - yeah it's the yellow submarine. And his friends.
Storage - about 150k - too high but there is a reason for that before the end of times.
Here is the kicker though - my income varies but regularly hits 3 million - i.e. I can afford all of those expenses long term (my highest income per tick to date has been 3.8 million)
It's not about me having more stuff than you - our production costs (excluding the artifacts) are similar so you should be able to get a similar level of income and at least triple the size of your military.
Need to learn to spend less - but also to earn more. It's a balance. The other hard thing is that you don't strive necessarily for perfection. I could if I really massaged all of my logistics consistently hit 3 million in income with my current setup but I would be bored to death. Instead I kinda let my income dwindle till it hits about 2 million then re-optimize to make it good again (I do have the benefit of a diminishing but still significant cash reserve though).
Think differently just like you are doing - you'll enjoy the game much more 
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badmaw Posts: 80
5/7/2017
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"You have to limit the size of the players otherwise a single player can take over the entire game and the game is over in 3 months."
I don't think this is the reason. You can put 100x more logistic points and I guarantee that nobody can take over the world.
Even 2x logistic points will make the penalties go. I was in the yellow almost all the time and it didn't stopped me to carry on. Now I am in the red with 102% for military and still doesn't mean anything for numbers. It has just an anxiety effect, you see that and you think you do something wrong.
So, for a player to not dominate the game: implement taxes. Your company is worth under $1M: zero taxes. Under $1B: 1k/tick. Under $1T: 1M/tick. Over $1T: half your worth every tick.
Fund Terran Federation with taxes.
That is an elegant solution to that problem. But I don't think the problem you want to solve is that.
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badmaw Posts: 80
5/7/2017
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You are perfectly right. My situation is a mess now but because I thought I played another game, not because I can't manage. After release you'll see I'm good.
Ok, so let's work with your numbers. Or better, let's say that the best player earns $10M/tick. That means 4 Monoliths and some ships. With 4 Shipyards you make the monoliths in two weeks. Then you have a fight of one hour and start over.
Well, I get it that you like it that way, I really do. But what I don't understand is why do you call this game "a loosely cooperative strategy game of commerce, industry, politics and warfare" when actually is a wait game. You do like 100x much more wait than any other activity here. It's like a glass of wine: if you put two cubes of ice to cool it it's still wine, it's not water just because you'll find traces of water in it. And nobody will come to complain that there's too much waiting in a game of wait. Labels matter.
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badmaw Posts: 80
5/7/2017
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Hey, we have apostrophes now! That is awesome!
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Vulpex Posts: 390
5/7/2017
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badmaw wrote:
Ok, so let's work with your numbers. Or better, let's say that the best player earns $10M/tick. That means 4 Monoliths and some ships. With 4 Shipyards you make the monoliths in two weeks. Then you have a fight of one hour and start over.
Keep it up and one day you'll get it.
You're not quite there yet though.
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Doctor Dread Administrator Posts: 1478
5/7/2017
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badmaw wrote:
I have like a half of a billion cash and the company is worth like 1 billion.
I think I need to make enough to support the military. I don't know how much is this but now, as I understand more and more of this game, it probably doesn't matter. Because alone I will never have enough military power to protect myself. So I'll make some alliances and get used to idea that I'll never be completely safe.
My problem was that I had the wrong premises. Of course things had no sense. Now that I understand the premises of the game, I start to understand why some things are this way. I won't necessary like the game more but at least now I don't want to "improve" it anymore. Which is a big win for you, I guess I was very annoying.
One of the first new features I'm trying to implement is the NPC based Pirate factions, Commonwealth and Dark Star Empire. They will be nearly as strong as the Terran Feds with huge bases and a lot of units camping out most of the time. They will attack entire planets or groups of players influenced by vote and bribes. There will also be a way for you to pay them money to attack specific corps or entire planets. If you have a ton of cash and cant protect yourself, these will the guys you want to talk to =)
I might need to get the Escort order in place so you can hire these Pirates to escort your fleets into a combat but it might be able to wait.
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FuriousGeorge Posts: 51
5/8/2017
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First, fantastic work Dread.
Second, I started about a week ago, after a couple tweaks and looking into what is selling low/high and only a few transports and the tutorial cash, I make about 600k-2M a turn depending on where my units are in their loops. It seems very balanced, and while I still have a lot to learn about the supply and demand of cities, especially for expansion, I don't feel there is "no way to make enough money" which to me is a sophomoric claim. That's like playing Dark Souls and claiming there's no way to 1-Hit KO all the enemies... It wasn't built for your power trip, it was built for the experience.
I LOVE the idea of more NPC factions and the interplay mentioned, I think it will definitely add another level to corporate espionage which is always welcome. (EVE long cons for the win).
Also if people are very concerned with making money, I highly recommend some excel sheets with formulas to help you deduce Return on Investment for your company. I made a couple simple formulas and they are VERY useful when deciding what current option is a better path.
Thanks for reigniting my love for this style of game Dread!
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Doctor Dread Administrator Posts: 1478
5/8/2017
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Ya know during the First beta people were complaining they couldn't make any money or not fast enough, but I can look at everyone's game and you see some impressive money making stuff. One of the biggest players at the time was solely buying and selling and making a fortune meanwhile most players were selling their products into the ground.
There wasn't any way to make money militarily back then. Now the Pirates and Kailua give out Bounties. I want to find some more ways to make money militarily too.
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badmaw Posts: 80
5/8/2017
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I'm assuming you are not a shill or a troll si I post this, it's like a summary for Doctor Dread.
It was never about the money, I said it in a lot of places.
You see Vulpex asking me about the money because he too thinks that I'm worried about the money. And you see me responding him because he asked me that, not because I've got a problem with money.
My problems are:
1. Logistic points. They say that logistic points are there so a player can't take over the world.
I don't buy it, nobody can take over the world with 10x more logistic points and there are other, more elegant solutions for this anyway.
2. OverCrowding. This is seed for fight and source of frustration.
3. Absurdly long times for upgrading. Long times can be achieved more naturally.
I don't care anymore, I won't talk about this on my own initiative, so you can hold your horses.
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