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TestUser Posts: 11
3/21/2018
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Last weekend Sore Cogs Galactical attacked me with his alt: Dragons Gear.
This is his alt because:
-The way he roleplays with them in the following local comms:
*Public Warning: New Terrorist on the Block
*Renegades!
-Contracts supplies funds to this alt, I sadly don't have hard evidence of this only the following terminated one:
9159 Terminated Dragons Gear Sell Sore Cogs Galactical Sell Vegetables 2 at $250,000,000 each
I did see a completed one where a large sum of credits where transfered. If required this might still be available in the database.
Dragons gear attacked with fully upgraded Monolith, Heavy Bomber and Modified Varitek. No corp could manage to get those on their own so fast.
It violates the use of alts on these 2 points:
-Feeding another corp, Dragons Gear currently has $2,597,203,242 and lvl 10 fully artifact-ed: Monolith, Heavy Bomber and Modified Varitek.
-Making a corp just to attack someone.
I reached out about the attack to Sore Cogs and Dragons Gear but got no response. I suspect he made Dragons Gear to attack and avoid liability with Sore Cogs.
The RP started when the possibility of violation of alts was mentioned. Before that there was no RP. Dragons Gear never contacted me with threats or demands.
Please fill in the poll and share any thoughts you have on this.
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CptCommanche Posts: 69
3/21/2018
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From the comms, there is no doubt this is Sore Cogs.
These items would have clearly been transferred from Sore Cogs to the alt through a violation of the game rules.
I understand the desire to RP and create some action. I have done it a lot. However, in this instance Sore Cogs is in violation of the Terms of Use.
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Boldor Galactic Inc, AKA the old StarCorp
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Wreith42 Posts: 58
3/22/2018
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Contract ID 9308
Corporation Dragons Gear
Type of Trade Sell to another corporation - Specific Corporation
Corp To Trade With Sore Cogs Galactical
Product Stack * This Contract Has No Units *
Sell Price: $300,000,000 Unit Value: $0
Contract Term Start Turn: Immediately
Contract Title Sell Vegetables 66 for $300,000,000
Contract Notes
Contract Status Completed
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Doctor Dread Administrator Posts: 1478
3/25/2018
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If you know its Sore Cogs, then pretend Sore Cogs did the attack =)
I can't stop the alts. I will intervene if its really bad but I don't want to go after every person who attacks through an alt especially if its obvious who the main is for all the players already.
What I want to try to do instead is make another outlet for proxy war like this so you don't end up making an alt account. I want to get these pirate factions up and allow players to pay them to attack other players by paying them. The more you pay them the stronger the attack. They would essentially be mercenaries and can they can attack or defend with you temporarily. It might be as simple as paying an upfront cost to have their fleets or ground forces escort a group you select and charge you a large upkeep to hold them. That would be a near infinite money sink available to all players. and allow for a sort of fighting past your logistics on units you didn't spend a month to build up
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ChaChaCharms Posts: 167
3/25/2018
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Basically this is what cogs did. He in no way tried to hide it. Simply tried to increase the role play aspects of the game. And also point out that some people need to invest more in military.. granted I'd like to see corps pay other corps to attack someone. Call it a mafia, a bounty hunter service... or simply your friendly neighborhood enforcer lol
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Never trust anything that can think for itself if you can’t see where it keeps its brain..
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TestUser Posts: 11
3/26/2018
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Ah well, ark wants to win/be right at any cost. Sad day for the community when ark places itself above it.
Days have gone by without any RP and only after the possible mention of violation the RP started. Which was more of a way to extort billions but probably was lots of fun for Sore.
Not to mention the whole reason of the attack was because Sore got mad about a game discussion and acted out his emotions this way.
This concludes it, I rest my case.
edited by Olgaron on 3/26/2018
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Cogs Posts: 29
3/26/2018
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That is good news Doctor Dread, thank you for working on aspects of the game rendering it more exciting and perhaps more attractive to a wider audience.
And thank you to Baldurs for involuntary participating as a guinea pig which allowed to steer onto some additional potential path this game is in need of.
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ChaChaCharms Posts: 167
3/26/2018
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Glad to hear you are resting. There actually has been some RP going on... dragons has taken over sore cogs. Safehold has found a new religion... ummm the weekend happened so there is generally a bit of drop in activity so there's that..
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Never trust anything that can think for itself if you can’t see where it keeps its brain..
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TestUser Posts: 11
3/26/2018
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Yeah right, nice sneer. The fact still remains the same. The Rp was just used to avoid taking responsibility. He got caught with his pants down and start with the whole play-act. The RP was one sided and only directed to me, never he just manned up and said he made a mistake or offered any other real explanation.
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ChaChaCharms Posts: 167
3/26/2018
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Well considering his rp was not received well it makes sense that it stopped. People do a thing called traveling for work as well, sorry that it does not fit your timetable
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Never trust anything that can think for itself if you can’t see where it keeps its brain..
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Cogs Posts: 29
3/26/2018
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Oh! Hi Baldur, you still here? Congrats on your tenacity. When do you intend to become active again? Actually no need to tell, since you're just a passenger on this platform.
By the way, the explanations were offered several times, do you need them again ?
- Baldurs Syndicate has no HQ which avoids it appearing in reports and renders its operation bulletins and reviews non-existent.
- Since its net worth is 87 Billion and its small amount of assets is barely active, a small raid was not considered to be really hurtful
- With all that wealth in its vault there was no security or military present to protect it or ready to jump in and fight back, meaning it was not because it is an easy target but it was to prove that with all that money you better at least invest in military means to keep your assets safe from raids instead of relying on others to keep and fight raiders and Machines away and at bay (you sort of play the role of a parasite). Static military structures are not sufficient, Raiders and Machines, and Kaijus alike, are also capable of destroying transports and freighters.
- All the accumulated wealth that is not spend could help support and expand the economy in general, yet it just sits there, it is capital leeched from the galaxy that could be put and invested to better use
- This made Baldurs Syndicate a justified target to demonstrate a different and possible aspect of the game .. as for the warp freighter this became an unfortunate casualty caught in the crossfire during the demonstration
- Because of the character and personality of Baldurs Syndicate's CEO we new we would receive plenty of coverage and exposure instituted by him, and we thank him for this too
edited by Surgicus on 3/26/2018
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TestUser Posts: 11
3/26/2018
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ChaChaCharms wrote:
Well considering his rp was not received well it makes sense that it stopped. People do a thing called traveling for work as well, sorry that it does not fit your timetable
Nice strawman argument, my timetable is not a point of concern. Neither when the RP stopped, it is that the "rp" started when the violation of alts was mentioned. Its highly suspicious to make alt and keep it silent for days. and then attack a target you got mad about earlier. The RP is just a cheap way to cover it up you made a mistake.
Surgicus wrote:
Oh! Hi Baldur, you still here? Congrats on your tenacity. When do you intend to become active again? Actually no need to tell, since you're just a passenger on this platform.
By the way, the explanations were offered several times, do you need them again ?
- Baldurs Syndicate has no HQ which avoids it appearing in reports and renders its operation bulletins and reviews non-existent.
- Since its net worth is 87 Billion and its small amount of assets is barely active, a small raid was not considered to be really hurtful
- With all that wealth in its vault there was no security or military present to protect it or ready to jump in and fight back, meaning it was not because it is an easy target but it was to prove that with all that money you better at least invest in military means to keep your assets safe from raids instead of relying on others to keep and fight raiders and Machines away and at bay (you sort of play the role of a parasite). Static military structures are not sufficient, Raiders and Machines, and Kaijus alike, are also capable of destroying transports and freighters.
- All the accumulated wealth that is not spend could help support and expand the economy in general, yet it just sits there, it is capital leeched from the galaxy that could be put and invested to better use
- This made Baldurs Syndicate a justified target to demonstrate a different and possible aspect of the game .. as for the warp freighter this became an unfortunate casualty caught in the crossfire during the demonstration
- Because of the character and personality of Baldurs Syndicate's CEO we new we would receive plenty of coverage and exposure instituted by him, and we thank him for this too
edited by Surgicus on 3/26/2018
I guess this is Sore.
I have never been inactive in the game the past months. If you see active as how much logistics your corps has: its upon players to choose how active they want to play this game. No one is forcing you to play so active.
Its funny to see that with the lack of arguments your need to insult rises.
Ah well, explanations are mostly excuses when a violation occurs. You got caught breaking the alt rules but your ego wont allow a simple apology or remorse.
The explanations where brought as RP, so as not being real. But since you posted them here, non rp thread i suspect that you really started to belief in them.
For the record I will answer the list. So that no other player should get the impression that these things matter, that would be Idiocracy.
-This is true, if your HQ is destroyed or salvaged, you will only disappear from the corporations-leaderboard report. The value of that report is mostly for comparing yourself to other corporations. Being absent from that doesn't impact anything, visit the corp view you can still see everything a corp does. This has never been a problem or concern to anyone. Playing without a HQ add a little more challenge to the game, you cant build your own ACP anymore and you lose HQ structure bonuses. I was curious as to how playable the game still was with out a HQ.
- This is a fallacy. One other cant really predict how hurtful a attack would be. I was fond the warp freighter, it was my longest serving assets being build when I first played the game. Its fun to immerse yourself in the game world.
Besides, it wasn't a small raid, it was a calculated destruction. The first wave consisting of 3 attacks, then after messaging Dragons Gear and without getting any response or demand, 3 more attacks. Only 3 days later after StarCorp mentioned Sore broke the rules the RP started.
- Another error in this reasoning. First I never asked anyone else to protect me nor do I rely on others to protect me. Don't worry, having credits on the bank doesn't mean you are a parasite. I didn't leach of any other corporations. My military was sufficient to defend/deter raiders. I have tons of defensive assets. And if it wasn't enough I would take my loss and rebuild.
The raid I suffered wasn't a normal raid. Sore decided he wanted to attack me and transfered enough units to steamroll over the defense. This was possible because he is one of the most powerful military forces in the game. Does this mean you have to build insane defense to defend against him? No not really, just don't upset him because his character is a tad unstable.
Also having a military like Sore says isn't required, its upon yourself to decide how you play the game.
- There is not need to spend capital on the galaxy. Every credit you make is something you have earned, Sore may call you a leech but many others wont. It one of the goals you could peruse i this game. Also there isn't much supporting to do, it just comes down to making credits. If the game had only 1 player he would be able to make plenty of credits himself. To really support the galaxy/community its best not to be to greedy, don't have to many research centers (sore used 6 for a long time), don't farm pve content just for the bounty, don't try to police the whole galaxy and push other players away. Its better for the whole to act with more empathy as to how other players play this game.
- This was no demonstration, everything that happen was already a aspect of the game and done many times before. This is just excuse inspired by the post from Seren. Besides this aspect has been suggested a long time ago. There aren't any wild demonstration happening in this game, Seren clearly states when new content is available and mostly tests it himself first.
- The last is just another of Sore finest, just a troll remark.
Players "demonstrations" like this wont happen, if something would require a test this would happen in good consultation with the concerned players. Like the arena event that was hold a while back.
For new and old players alike: this is a sandbox game, you are free to play as you like. You have no obligations to other players unless you make them.
On the violation of alt rules.
Its disappointing that DrDread and ARK disagree with this being a violation. Does this mean the alt rules are void?
We could have come to this conclusion sooner and prevent ARK from scaring away players in the past, during that time there was even less violation. It was just alts playing with each other.
The mayor difference now is that ARK is on the violation side.
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Wreith42 Posts: 58
3/26/2018
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This was clearly a violation of the alt rules as they are written. Units and funds were moved to an alt with the express purpose of attacking someone.
The roleplay was taken poorly because it was done poorly. Trying to excuse an unprovoked attack after the fact with an overused RP theme is in poor taste. Cogs just came off as a jerk who didn't want to take responsibility and risk his main assets.
Haedus Disciple, Safehold, and Light of Hypocrisy are doing it right.
The roleplay began before any attacks. That allows it to be entertaining for everyone and not just the one blowing other peoples stuff up.
I have no problem with alts in general and wouldn't have a problem with this one if there had been any hint of the RP before the attack and if there had been any attempt to make the alt legitimate with industry instead of just a vehicle for attacking people (and that only because that's what the rules say)
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+1
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Guest
3/26/2018
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I’ve been out of the loop for a few months, so someone let me know if some new points were raised or consensus reached on these points while I was gone that I am not aware of.
The pirate faction sounds like a great feature, but I don’t think it speaks to the tensions at hand. I presume this whole Dragon Gears incident was motivated as much out of boredom as anything else. Sore Cogs been around since beta. They have a huge corporation that is humming along and has a huge army. It doesn’t look like they are struggling at all to keep their budget blanced. They are not challenged by playing against the economy and they are bored. The only potential source of tension is other players. So they will start messing with other players to keep the game entertaining for the self. Either by challenging themselves against a worthy opponent or toying with weaker players.
(I suspect most ARK players, assuming they are still the powerhouse they were 6 months ago, are constantly checking the impulse to stir up some drama for themselves because they don’t want to be bullies chasing new players away).
If the pirate faction is introduced as a more efficient mechanism to wage a proxy wars, then you have just figured out a way to make proxy wars boring as well. Players are getting into proxy wars because they want to command units themselves. And they are using proxy corporations either so they aren’t risking the destruction of their corporation or looking like bullies for going after a weaker player.
I still suggest alternate accounts should be treated like a baked in feature of the game that should be refined, since regulation is so difficult and subjective. What about a reparations mechanic that looks at a trade deficit with corporations that are facing reparations. If, say, 90% of a corporation on trial’s net worth came from an imbalanced trade with a larger corporation (whether they are suspected of being a puppet master or not), then 90% of the reparations liability will be also be charged to the potential puppet master against the potential puppet master’s net worth. Then it doesn’t matter if it’s an alternate account controlled by the same person. The larger corporation will be punished regardless for propping up the aggressive aggressive puppet corporation.
I don’t know what kind of history has evolved between you guys while I was gone, but just reading this thread it seems like you guys picked a fight with Baldur and are now trying to bait him into getting angrier about it. You’re mixing in character and out of character points that don’t fit together and therefor come across as a disingenuous attempt to get under his skin.
Don’t be jerks. Offer a mia culpa for the use of a proxy, emphasize here in the forum that you don’t mean for him to take it personally despite whatever role playing you do over comms, and remind him that he made himself a tempting target by leaving his infrastructure undefended which carries some inherent risks he chose to take.
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Hutton Posts: 276
3/26/2018
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The above “guest” remark is from me.
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Cogs Posts: 29
3/26/2018
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Hutton, aka City of New York - now Municipal Archives, you nailed it, you are right on when advocating the positions of Sore Cogs and Dragons Gear.
So, if reparations are what is now the concern, what about a compromise: when Seren has introduced what he describes above, and Baldurs is becoming constructively active again, with a military that speaks for his net worth, then Sore Cogs would give him 3 AX Mysterious, 2 AX Dimensional and 1 AX Metaphysics .. Sore Cogs could replace his warp freighter but Dragons Gear is intrigued and annoyed as to why Baldurs refuses to establish an HQ and presenting more transparency in regards to his corporation, so if the the three conditions are fulfilled the artifact offer would then be switched to a fully equipped warp freighter.
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Hutton Posts: 276
3/27/2018
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I want to parse out a couple of things. Baldur should play the way he wants and, as players, we shouldn’t try to undermine his fun by saying he’s doing it wrong. Maybe you find this loophole he’s found to operate off the radar is a little unsettling and feel like you need to throw a monkey wrench into his growth to hedge against the threat he might become to you. (That’s the kind of a risk/reward decision making opportunity that makes a game interesting). That is how you choose to play and no one should yuck your yum either here in the forums when we are communicating with each other as players.
I think it’s acceptable to fling insults and even mount nonsensical criticisms in the Comms when trying to justify your attacks in character. Case in point: that Baldur is not being a good corporate citizen because he is hoarding his wealth instead of investing in the economy. One of the abstractions of the BoE economy is that spending money in a city is acutually detrimental to it’s growth, so the suggestion that he’s somehow doing harm by hoarding his wealth is absurd on its face. But that doesn’t mean it’s not a good excuse in character in the Comms because it rings true. The politicking and saber rattling in Comms is a lot like the Baron Munchausen game, (https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/2470/extraordinary-adventures-baron-munchausen), where we are all making up pretexts to justify our belligerent actions and trying to trip up each other’s pretexts with exquisitely contorted logic. The better you are at inventing a good pretext, the more slack the rest of the player base will cut you when you start acting up.
The problem with proxy accounts is that the guidelines are nebulous, so everyone has their own interpretation. I understand why they are nebulous. People will figure out loopholes in any list of do’s and don’ts that Dr. Dread tries to set in stone, and he doesn’t want to be draconian with players screwing around occasionally. (Even if he did start swinging a ban hammer around, that would only take away their progress. How do you stop someone from opening a new free account or borrowing their mom’s credit card for another paid account). So the guideline is abuse; which ,like pornography, isn’t easily defined by specific actions but most of us will know it when we see it. It’s someone having their fun at the expense of someone else’s fun. (That doesn’t mean beating someone else in a fight is abuse. The danger of losing your corporation in a fight and tension that comes from fear of bigger corporations is an important ingredient for your fun, whether you realize it or not). It’s engaging in behavior that is going to harm the game because it is alienating players who would not rage quit after a fair fight.
But your metric for abuse might be different if you’re the one that just lost a fight you should have won or should have been close because the other guy pushed the envelope farther than you did. It reminds me of a George Carlin bit about driving on the freeway. Everyone in front of you going slower than you are is an idiot, and everyone passing you is a maniac. But of course no one is going the exact same speed you are so the world is just full of idiots and maniacs.
I had said earlier that I thought that the pirate faction would be a cool mechanic, but not as a substitute for proxy wars. After thinking about though, I realized it might kind of legitimize the whole mechanic. If I can anonymously send pirates after you, why would you complain about the more labor intensive and probably less efficient act of building and running a proxy corp to attack you. It would just be a more roundabout and interesting way of doing something built into the mechanics.
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TestUser Posts: 11
3/27/2018
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Thanks for joining the discussion Hutton. Well laid out arguments.
Can I propose a resolution to this?
There was a violation for the alt rules. The community has voted in favor.
There has been no confession but also now arguments as to why is wasn't abuse.
The penalty has been acted out by Star Corp and Sore already retaliated against him.
As a sign of good will i placed a HQ and will provide the galaxy with some Geo artifacts.
I hope this can lead to a end. I would hate to see StarCorp crushed. We all know its a cakewalk for ARK but please don't continue on this because the reasons for this conflict are to far apart.
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jimbobdaz Posts: 83
4/5/2018
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Although i am part of Ark i have purposely sat back from this and tried to stay neutral. but on the subject of the community voting in favour of alt abuse... this alone is not enough in grey areas like this, it is meaningless without the ability to enforce somehow the decision... personally i hope we never return to the reparation system we had before, at least not the way it worked then
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Hutton Posts: 276
4/6/2018
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I agree. If it’s going to be left up to the community to set it’s own standards by consensus, there needs to be tools to enforce that consensus. Something a little more fair than “might makes right.” Although I think a better solutions would be to figure out some balance mechanics so that running a proxy doesn’t provide you with a strategic advantage other than a veil of secrecy.
Are reparations gone now? Did anything take their place? Reparations were an incentive to wage proxy wars because they insulated your corporation from reparations against your total net worth. Is their any other reason to run a second corporation other than subterfuge now?
I guess it expands your logistics if you invest the time and money into leveling up the second corporation, but that is going to be a lost investment, assuming you are going to disband the Corp once it’s cover is blown and your war is over.
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