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Previously: Science! Now it's about space stations Messages in this topic - RSS

Hutton
Hutton
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4/24/2017
Hutton
Hutton
Posts: 276
Some ideas about making the game more sciencey. Please feel free to add your own.

Doc Dread has recently been describing an intention to introduce MegaStructures that exist in orbit around a planet. The first thing that jumped to my mind was space elevators. Space elevators are a means of cheaply transporting material out of a planets gravity well.

The more basic version of a space elevator is a satellite in geosynchronous orbit above the earth's equator attached to some point on the equator by a tether. The speed at which the satellite is moving is actually too high to stay in orbit without the thether and would fly into space if the thether was broken. (This also means the satellite has its own gravity from the Coriolanus force of rotating around the earth, in which up is towards earth and down is interplanetary space). Crawler vehicles climb up and down the tether to move cargo between the satellite and the surface. This is cheaper than launching spacecraft into orbit under their own power.

A cheaper, and weirder alternative to the traditional space elevator is to build an unattached tether in orbit around earth and then set it spinning so the ends dip into the atmosphere as they point down at the planet. The spacecraft flies up into the upper atmosphere like a conventional aircraft using aerodynamic lift, (or is carried that high by an aircraft if it is not built to use the atmosphere for lift), and grabs the end of the tether as it swings into the atmosphere. As the tether spins, it pulls the spacecraft up out of the atmosphere. The spacecraft releases the tether when pointed at the angle closest to its desired destination and is flinged off into space.

A simpler alternative is to build a railgun on the surface that shoots cargo into space like a bullet.

As the game works now these structures wouldn't serve any practical purpose, because all spacecraft have a flat maintenance fee. It costs the same to launch them into space as it does to keep them parked in orbit, so there is no gameplay benefit to a structure that moves cargo into space.

But I throw these out, Dr. Dread, in case you are planning to drop some major updates a year are so from now to mix up the gameplay and give us some new balance issues to contend with. Like making ships cheap to park, fly through interplanetary space or land on a planet; and expensive to engage in combat, fly through interseller space and launch from a planet.
edited by Hutton on 4/25/2017
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Vulpex
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4/24/2017
Vulpex
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Railguns have a problem - if you try to shoot anything through earth atmosphere into orbit ... it will explode. Doesn't matter if you use a railgun or anything else, the needed speed (something like mach 11 or 12) vs the friction of the atmosphere on earth will cause it explode. Kaboom.... Not ideal for shipping grandma's china. (Though it could work on some low atmosphere planets or moons).

Thing is right now, aside from having different resource distribution all planets are essentially the same. But try driving a tank through Jupiter - I dare you :p

I too really like the idea of orbital structures, or even at some point orbital stations which would allow for funky stuff to happen. (Maybe slightly faster spaceship construction at increased cost or something like that).
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cyb0rg
cyb0rg
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4/24/2017
cyb0rg
cyb0rg
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Ring worlds and Dyson Spheres.
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Doctor Dread
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4/24/2017
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Space elevators, I can't image what practical in game use we can make for those. Once you have anti gravity on spaceships, elevators aren't very viable anymore. I did have an idea of Military bases allowing ground units to make a "Moon Shot" and jump to a neighboring moon. Not sure if thats very useful either.

So far the only Orbitals I can think of that would mean anything are the Orbital guns that can support any attack on the planet itself. A star base Where you can actually land units on, be considered ground?, Act as a Shipyard and also a space fort. Heals ships faster. And a warp gate that can link to another warp gate. Leveling it up probably means bigger ships can go through up to monoliths. Players who use it pay the owner,.

That's one offense, defense and and commerce structure. Might make a way to take over the orbital instead of destroying it.

I was really trying to think of some kind o mechanic that makes taking territory worth something. Like you can militarily go into a city and somehow hold it for cash. Give military guys some kind of war game to play that isn't simply kill everything. I might make the Pirate factions do something like that. They walk into towns and hold them and extort some kind of tax on everyone. Perhaps make ruler elections run mainly on military power at the location. Just ideas.
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Doctor Dread
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4/24/2017
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cyb0rg wrote:
Ring worlds and Dyson Spheres.



Every Sci Fi Fan wants Ring Worlds and Dyson Spheres! Not exactly in the scope of the game though. We recently discover space travel and move directly to Ring Worlds and Dyson Spheres =)


It can possibly be something you find and interact with as part of an event but you won't be manufacturing "Galactic Alienworks" (new term, copyright!) no matter how much Illegal Cyberwear you are selling
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Vulpex
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4/24/2017
Vulpex
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Ohhh.... warp gates....

To be honest that is probably the only way to have any kind of meaningful commerce if the galaxy really starts to open up. Even fast scouts will take significant amounts of time flying around the corners of the galaxy.

I actually like the idea that some cities may somehow end up under martial law where the ruler election is then determined by military power rather than economic one.

Moon shots - limited in use yet but you never know... would not make it a priority anyhow.
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Hutton
Hutton
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4/25/2017
Hutton
Hutton
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Doctor Dread wrote:
Space elevators, I can't image what practical in game use we can make for those. Once you have anti gravity on spaceships, elevators aren't very viable anymore. I did have an idea of Military bases allowing ground units to make a "Moon Shot" and jump to a neighboring moon. Not sure if thats very useful either.

...

I was really trying to think of some kind o mechanic that makes taking territory worth something. Like you can militarily go into a city and somehow hold it for cash. Give military guys some kind of war game to play that isn't simply kill everything. I might make the Pirate factions do something like that. They walk into towns and hold them and extort some kind of tax on everyone. Perhaps make ruler elections run mainly on military power at the location. Just ideas.


Yeah, if anti-gravity is part of the canon then space elevators are already obsolete in the setting.

I'm going to participate in derailing my on stated topic for this thread now, and say that blockades are the obvious application of military force in a game primarily about commerce.

Doc, is it possible in your code to treat the next level up in the map as coordinates that can be occupied? (What is that level called, other than planetary? What do we call it in the squares that don't have planets?) Or is it possible to create another coordinate that touches all the squares on the edge of the level 2 squares? If it is, we could call that square "Orbit". And you could create a Blockade order that allows fleets to engage in one round of combat with any nits that pass within one square of them.

Blockades might be an effective way of keeping other players off overcrowded resources or extorting them to leave the resource.

If implemented, the Blockade order should have a safe list of corporations that will not be attacked.

There should maybe be a "Run Blockade?" checkbox, if technically feasible, that will stop corps from accidentally running blockades because they weren't paying attention.

If a planet has a Star Fortress, that blocks everyone but the fortress owner from blockading that planet. So, that's another potential advantage of Orbital Mega-Structures.

If technically feasible, ground defenses, like Ion Cannons, should help ships running the blockade. At a penalty if that ends up including all forces on the planet to reflect that defenses in New York and Sydney can't both be pointed in the right direction at the same time. Maybe there would be some mechanism to specify what city the blockade is being run from and only that city's defenses can participate. That's probably too complicated, though.
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Vulpex
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4/25/2017
Vulpex
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Blockades... now you are onto something...

It actually can have several applications including for instance the fact that city rulers could decide that certain goods are illegal to buy and/or sell in their city and blockade anyone moving that stuff (a great way to manipulate markets that) I think the idea of a star fortress blockading a whole planet might be a bit over the top but it is something interesting overall. You could even build specialized blockade running ship if for instance your chances of running a blockade depended on your ship's speed and size or something like that (so a scout could have a reasonable chance of getting through but that Battleship? Not so much)

For development at a later date - it seems a bit silly to have spaceship combat and ground forces fighting each other as they do now... I mean really? Infantry with rifles shooting away and a monolith in orbit? Or artillery and tanks for that reason doing the same :p (I won't forget that one Dread)
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Hutton
Hutton
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4/25/2017
Hutton
Hutton
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Vulpex wrote:
Ohhh.... warp gates....

To be honest that is probably the only way to have any kind of meaningful commerce if the galaxy really starts to open up. Even fast scouts will take significant amounts of time flying around the corners of the galaxy.


It seems about right that interstellar trade would be an outlier. I expect systems, and even planets, to be mostly self sufficient. I'm only buying and selling off Earth right now when they is a big spike or crash in demand of some product off planet. But, if at some point luxury goods that were unique to particular planets were introduced. The top social classes on Centauri would probably pay through the nose for some French wine or Cuban cigars, for example.

Also, I was inferring that it was an intended feature of the design that each system work a little like separate game instances. Players can bounce between until they find a place to stake their claim rather than set up an empire that spans multiple systems. I have a small presence on Centauri right now to take advantage of the less crowded Artifact, but I look at that as temporary opportunism.
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Hutton
Hutton
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4/25/2017
Hutton
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Vulpex wrote:
Blockades... now you are onto something...

It actually can have several applications including for instance the fact that city rulers could decide that certain goods are illegal to buy and/or sell in their city and blockade anyone moving that stuff (a great way to manipulate markets that) I think the idea of a star fortress blockading a whole planet might be a bit over the top but it is something interesting overall. You could even build specialized blockade running ship if for instance your chances of running a blockade depended on your ship's speed and size or something like that (so a scout could have a reasonable chance of getting through but that Battleship? Not so much)

For development at a later date - it seems a bit silly to have spaceship combat and ground forces fighting each other as they do now... I mean really? Infantry with rifles shooting away and a monolith in orbit? Or artillery and tanks for that reason doing the same :p (I won't forget that one Dread)


What your describing is also interesting. I guess that would involve adding a menu to the Guard order to attack units carrying certain Products. Is that as simple as it sounds, Doc?

I was imagining the stategy for running a blockade to be using a large convoy, maybe of several corps at once so damage is spread to thin to hurt.


(Which speaks to another suggestion. Some people have requested ETA's for completion of units orders. Related to that, it would be nice if you could set an ETA for a string of orders, like in Hearts of Iron. So if you are trying to coordinate an attack with another player you can agree to strike on turn 3256, set the as the ETA, and the units will calculate how long their orders will take and wait an appropriate number of turns to start).

Sneaking through would have to be a different kind of movement order or an option within the movement orders, I guess. That would be cool. Are we asking for too much yet?
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Hutton
Hutton
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4/25/2017
Hutton
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As far as support from ground units supporting blockade running, I was actually thinking more about the Military Structures helping out. (And maybe just to contribute firepower, not absorb damage). But Doc has mentioned that some ground units can fight in space and some can't. Like, I think he said commandos can, but infantry can't. And the description of some of the special fighter units in the game say that they can fight in space, from which I infer that regular fighters can't. So this would be an opportunity for that advantage to be put to use, because it doesn't look like it serves a purpose right now.
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Doctor Dread
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4/25/2017
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Hutton wrote:
As far as support from ground units supporting blockade running, I was actually thinking more about the Military Structures helping out. (And maybe just to contribute firepower, not absorb damage). But Doc has mentioned that some ground units can fight in space and some can't. Like, I think he said commandos can, but infantry can't. And the description of some of the special fighter units in the game say that they can fight in space, from which I infer that regular fighters can't. So this would be an opportunity for that advantage to be put to use, because it doesn't look like it serves a purpose right now.




I don't see a good way to actually prevent units from moving through a blockade in the game. We might be able to do something like units move slower, even 0 under some sort of blockade on a planet but I don't like the prevent movement mechanic at all. I DO see some potential in having "blockades" where any ship entering the planet space will get continually fired upon or attacked by the blockading force.

Say for example, you can have ships parked at a Starbase and anything at a Starbase can be set to "blockade" the entire planet with the same options of a regular attack. Actually you would be able to do this without a starbase, just be parked at one of the 4 or 8 special locations in space near the planet that we put in. From that location your fleet can essentially engage ANY ship anywhere on the entire planet screen, ground and space. If you send a fleet to one of these special spaces and set it to Attack Everyone, that fleet will automatically be in combat with any ship on the planet without moving. It is just like how Orbital guns were going to work except you are parking a fleet at an orbital location instead of building a gun.

This is an interesting idea because now it solves the problem of space fights. These 4 or 8 locations around every planet would be something you would fight over if you want to pin down the planet. We could make the orbital guns and blockading fleets parked in these 4 corners only cover that quadrant of the planet they are on, so if you really wanted to blockade the ENTIRE planet you would have to take all 4, otherwise there would be sections of the planet that are open. You wouldn't be stopping anyone from going in, but they will be constantly attacked buy a blocking fleet. You wouldn't have to "chase down" anyone which is something that was going to be very difficult to implement. Having these 4 locations only cover that quadrant of the screen prevents opposing guns, bases, blocking fleets from attacking each other also, Except for that one line of middle spaces across 12 X and Y not sure how to handle that, Maybe they both can fire on ships at those locations. And that means all 4 quadrants could fire into 12:12 . interesting ....
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Hutton
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4/25/2017
Hutton
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I was actually trying to suggest something even more limited than that. Just that a blockading fleet engages in one round of combat with any units moving in or out of the planet's sector, (or whatever you call the coordinate tier that holds a whole planet). So if you have a big fleet they will wipe out a single cargo ship, but a convoy of ships would make it through because the damage would be spread between them.

But if this quadrant mechanic seems workable to you go for it. It sounds awesome.

Speaking to Vulpex's earlier point about interstellar trade, it just occurred to me that the most likely product for interstellar trade would actually be ships themselves. And maybe special ground units. I could see, once the population fills out, a corp setting up some big shipyards and then selling ships for a premium to players that in a war and can't wait for their own yards to pump out a Monolith. Or special units to players that can't afford to operate a Research Station in their own crowded system, or want a certain unit they haven't been able to get through a random quest.
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Hutton
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4/25/2017
Hutton
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You mentioned making orbital structures capturable. I'm assuming that Capture would be a new order type or a modifier to the Attack order. I suggest making ground units a requirement for capturing Orbital structures. And that only foot soldiers, like Infantry and Commandos should be good at it. (By the way, if your not already locked into by the art you have commissioned, may I recommend Combat Engineers and Cyber-Commandos instead of Commandos and Cyber-Assasins, given that that unit type specializes in attacking structures).

This might justify a new Marine unit. (For the benefit of anyone that doesn't already know this, prior to the twentieth century Marines were ship's soldiers whose primary mission was to fight and repel boarding actions. The emphasis changed to establishing beachheads during WWII, but the term marine would be acurately applied to soldiers specializing in EVA and corridor to corridor fighting).

The way I see it, you should be able to blow up or soften up a station with your fleet, but you'll need boots on the hull to capture it.
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Doctor Dread
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4/25/2017
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Hutton wrote:
You mentioned making orbital structures capturable. I'm assuming that Capture would be a new order type or a modifier to the Attack order. I suggest making ground units a requirement for capturing Orbital structures. And that only foot soldiers, like Infantry and Commandos should be good at it. (By the way, if your not already locked into by the art you have commissioned, may I recommend Combat Engineers and Cyber-Commandos instead of Commandos and Cyber-Assasins, given that that unit type specializes in attacking structures).

This might justify a new Marine unit. (For the benefit of anyone that doesn't already know this, prior to the twentieth century Marines were ship's soldiers whose primary mission was to fight and repel boarding actions. The emphasis changed to establishing beachheads during WWII, but the term marine would be acurately applied to soldiers specializing in EVA and corridor to corridor fighting).

The way I see it, you should be able to blow up or soften up a station with your fleet, but you'll need boots on the hull to capture it.


I'm thinking of some kind of "Capture Progress Bar" Almost like another Hit Point bar that if you deplete then you capture the installation. But that gets tricky with multiple players trying to capture. Perhaps you can attack "To Capture" just like you can attack "To Raid" and it puts your Corp damage against this Capture threshold. 5 corps can try to capture at once. Once the capture threshold is reached the Corp with the most "Capture Damage" takes the place. Attacking to Capture causes half damage....

That's getting convoluted, Scrap that idea...

To capture an installation you have to attack with "Capture Flag" which doesn't reduce any damage except maybe against the installation, and after you clear all enemies out then your attack on the installation becomes a capture that takes some time based on how much firepower you have against it and the size of the place....

Not sure about that either.....

Hmm so how about this Whatever units are set "To Capture" do not add anything to the combat itself, although they take damage, they are effective damage zero, there damage is instead applied to a capture threshold, which can be literally be another gauge of the units max hit points.. Once captured it changes sides immediately(?) I would go with that IF we made it so the amount of Capture damage you are doing is reduced by how healthy the installation is. If its 100% then you are 10% effective. if its at 20% hit points you are probably 90% effective with your capture damage. That makes it 10x harder to "Capture" a healthy station but viable to capture one that is almost destroyed, but you have to essentially attack all its hit points again. You can switch your orders on other units to "Capture" as it gets lower If you're going for a capture. You can also send in a huge fleet of commandos doing zero actual damage and try to Take a healthy installation but it would have to be quite large, take a while AND you're gonna get pounded by any other forces there the entire time. Once you actually take a installation like this, its probably badly damaged and any other corps in the fight can probably take it back from you pretty easy also.

Perhaps the units you are using to capture get "destroyed" to man the place. how many units you lose in this way determines how much Capture Damage is immediately replaced. If you capture with a single level 1 commando in the end. You will lose that commando but have only 100 Capture Damage left on the installation, someone else can take it from you easily until it "heals" . If you use a level 10 commando and take it. The Capture Damage will be restored by their hit points which is probably thousands. Ships can be used to capture but not actually take the place. If there are no commandos or infantry to "absorb" to man the station then you cant actually take it even though the Capture Damage is at zero,.

To avoid the "Take and Salvage immediately for 2 billion" problem, capturing an installation is not a permanent thing(?) . Its still owned by the original corporation and salvaging it will give them the money. Also, perhaps you cannot salvage the installation outright you literally have to salvage back all the levels to 0. That will take some time?

With some refinement I think this might work. Sounds fun fighting over a station which then goes to a capture war. =)
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Vulpex
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4/25/2017
Vulpex
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hmm... if the original company still owns the installation (even if it has been lost) do they pay for the repairs it might incurr too? Maybe you have to then separate between ownership and control.

Also... I sorta like the idea of infantry and/or commandos manning the stations - gives some sense to the low hangar values of some of the attack ships - they can use that cargo to bring in a couple of commandos to capture the station.
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Hutton
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4/25/2017
Hutton
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Doctor Dread wrote:
I'm thinking of some kind of "Capture Progress Bar" Almost like another Hit Point bar that if you deplete then you capture the installation. But that gets tricky with multiple players trying to capture. Perhaps you can attack "To Capture" just like you can attack "To Raid" and it puts your Corp damage against this Capture threshold. 5 corps can try to capture at once. Once the capture threshold is reached the Corp with the most "Capture Damage" takes the place. Attacking to Capture causes half damage....

That's getting convoluted, Scrap that idea...

To capture an installation you have to attack with "Capture Flag" which doesn't reduce any damage except maybe against the installation, and after you clear all enemies out then your attack on the installation becomes a capture that takes some time based on how much firepower you have against it and the size of the place....

Not sure about that either.....

Hmm so how about this Whatever units are set "To Capture" do not add anything to the combat itself, although they take damage, they are effective damage zero, there damage is instead applied to a capture threshold, which can be literally be another gauge of the units max hit points.. Once captured it changes sides immediately(?) I would go with that IF we made it so the amount of Capture damage you are doing is reduced by how healthy the installation is. If its 100% then you are 10% effective. if its at 20% hit points you are probably 90% effective with your capture damage. That makes it 10x harder to "Capture" a healthy station but viable to capture one that is almost destroyed, but you have to essentially attack all its hit points again. You can switch your orders on other units to "Capture" as it gets lower If you're going for a capture. You can also send in a huge fleet of commandos doing zero actual damage and try to Take a healthy installation but it would have to be quite large, take a while AND you're gonna get pounded by any other forces there the entire time. Once you actually take a installation like this, its probably badly damaged and any other corps in the fight can probably take it back from you pretty easy also.

Perhaps the units you are using to capture get "destroyed" to man the place. how many units you lose in this way determines how much Capture Damage is immediately replaced. If you capture with a single level 1 commando in the end. You will lose that commando but have only 100 Capture Damage left on the installation, someone else can take it from you easily until it "heals" . If you use a level 10 commando and take it. The Capture Damage will be restored by their hit points which is probably thousands. Ships can be used to capture but not actually take the place. If there are no commandos or infantry to "absorb" to man the station then you cant actually take it even though the Capture Damage is at zero,.

To avoid the "Take and Salvage immediately for 2 billion" problem, capturing an installation is not a permanent thing(?) . Its still owned by the original corporation and salvaging it will give them the money. Also, perhaps you cannot salvage the installation outright you literally have to salvage back all the levels to 0. That will take some time?

With some refinement I think this might work. Sounds fun fighting over a station which then goes to a capture war. =)


Another factor which might make this simpler or more complicated, I'm not sure: I'm assuming Orbital bases will be upgradable like ships. So it will have a base Attack, Hitpoints, Hanger, etc... and you can scale those up by investing a level in them. A smart corp will have at least a level 1 Infantry unit in the hanger to repel a sneak attack even in peacetime, but if your expecting an attack you have to make a choice about about balancing hanger space with armor and firepower. And even after that you have to balance space for your ship troopers with spacefighters if you have any. (While we're at it, clarify that. Can regular fighters and bombers fight in space, or just special units?)

So, the way I see it, if you have 5 corporations fighting over one platform, one of them can capture it, but the fighting can keep going on into the next turn. Whoever is in control gets a bonus to defend, just like with military structures in cities, but the effectiveness is reduced as the platform takes damage. Or, maybe the interior defenses on the station get built just like city defenses and can be damaged separately by ships in the battle going on outside. Maybe fighting between soldiers on the station doesn't normally damage the station's hull, but does when there is a special event for the units, like the bonuses and penalties that units get in regular combat.

So if you are attacking a station, you'll have an easier time taking it if you soften up the defenses with fire from an armada, but will have an easier time defending it if you have enough troops to take it quick before your fleet smashes up all the defenses. For that to play out so it's not all are nothing, could you make it so a damaged structure drop a level when it takes 50% damage instead of getting destroyed? (For that matter, wouldn't it make sense for that to happen to all ground units?)

So, yes to capture progress bar. Defenders push it left, attackers push it right. If combined attackers push it all the way right, attacker that did the most damage that round takes the bridge. If the other corp that was attacking is attacking the area, as opposed to the old defending corp, they will just keep pushing right. And the old defender can start pushing right with them. And unless the new defender is strong enough to push it left against the combined attack, they will get ousted the next turn. And maybe the two attackers are even attacking each other in the same turn they are trying to take control, because they need to weaken each other to so the other corp doesn't get the bridge first and the defensive bonus that comes with it. It becomes a battle of attrition.

Because I like that scenario, I'm going to argue against the troops getting consumed to bolster the station against the next attack, and the next attack is against the station. I want the troops to stay on the station and fight the next wave of attackers themselves.
edited by Hutton on 4/25/2017
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Hutton
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4/25/2017
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Yes to taking multiple turn to dismantle the station. Maybe even multiple turns for each level. I think that's a better solution than the old Corp retaining ownership, for the repair cost reason Vulpex mentions.
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Doctor Dread
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4/25/2017
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Hutton wrote:
Yes to taking multiple turn to dismantle the station. Maybe even multiple turns for each level. I think that's a better solution than the old Corp retaining ownership, for the repair cost reason Vulpex mentions.



I'm leaning towards, if you capture it, its yours. Just make not so easy/cheap to capture them, and its not like you can't take it back.. Like if you don't have an appropriate capture force then capturing the station isn't viable.

I don't want to make a different upgrade for Infantry defense. I mean seriously. You can just have Infantry ON the station. its like the same thing. Perhaps we'll work some kind of mechanic that makes it harder to capture with "Capture Flagged" units on the defense. OR Any Infantry in some sort of guard mode ... OH WAIT *Brain Lightning* , any infantry that is is ordered to "CAPTURE" just like the opposing attackers do the SAME THING as the attacking capture units are but in reverse. You do no damage, or maybe half, and your attack damage is instead put towards the capture bar. The defenders in Capture mode HEAL the capture bar. The attackers lower it. That sounds fantastic =)

So when you have a lot of infantry fighting at a station, you an set them to Capture on the defense and it "heals" the capture bar, or perhaps they do that by default. If you force them to attack then they attack normally but on defense if there is any capturing going on, they auto defend the capture. The health of the station still acts as a reduction to the attackers so its very difficult to take a healthy station unless you're coming in with literally 10x the infantry. But you can beat up the station and then as it gets low, send in the super commando carriers to attempt a takeover. this also means we don't have to do any "Absorbing units" to man the station and recover the capture bar. Anytime there are infantry at a station with capture damage they heal it with there firepower.

Makes me want to stall the launch by a month =)
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cyb0rg
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4/25/2017
cyb0rg
cyb0rg
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I think megastructures should require components and raw materials to build them.
edited by cyb0rg on 4/25/2017
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