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Doctor Dread Administrator Posts: 1478
8/20/2018
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This is being made sticky while I work on it. This is in relation to the "What should we work on Next" post from August 2018. Guild Bank is #1 in the poll and is a smaller feature that can show up quickly so its now given priority.
This is how I'm making a guild bank work to start, we can talk about adding more features and expanding it as we move long.
First thing is that Guilds will now how a "Bank" of credits. How exactly the guild collects money into the bank can go several different ways. The first one is simply straight deposit into the guild bank which is something i might allow on the guild page itself. The second way is by taxing the members. There will be a tax rate guild leaders can set which, for now, affects all members equally, although a more elaborate interface that allows you to tax members differently by overriding the default is a great idea.
What does the rate go against is a good question though. Should the tax go against a corps NET WORTH or TOTAL REVENUE or perhaps just the PROFITS your members make? Going by profits is at top of my list but would mean a guild member losing money every round would be contributing nothing. Perhaps I can make that a dropdown option also, how the tax rate works..
Some sort of Guild Accounting page is also going to show up which will show how much money each member is contributing (by whatever means) over the last few days and perhaps even a running total. That accounting is probably going to be public knowledge.
SO, collecting credits into a guild bank is the first part, the second is how the guild bank credits get spent. Are we going to allow guild leaders to directly transfer guild bank into their accounts if needed? Could be abusive but hey it's a guild and the terms of the tax is displayed before you join. However that brings up a good question, can guild leaders go from 2% to 100% and rape everyone? Is there a time limit to raise taxes, like it can only go up 1% a day? I'm currently capping the tax at 20% but guilds might want to legitimately tax 80-90% of your PROFITS for limited amounts of time and because its against profits it cant really wreck a member so it sounds pretty safe.
So far what I am working on right now is allowing corps/guild leaders to declare assets they already have as "Guild Assets" by a flag. This changes absolutely nothing about the asset itself, who owns it, who controls it, its still that corps asset in all ways BUT the Upkeep cost of that unit/fleet/structure now comes out of the guild bank. This allows the "guild" to essentially maintain huge assets but the authority over the assets is still on a single player, usually the guild leaders. The guild leaders can go to any of its members assets and flag them as Guild assets not the other way around. It will only be for military and structures.
When a turn flips all assets declared as Guild Assets get charged upkeep first against the respective Guild bank before players do. If the guild bank cannot cover ALL upkeep on a turn then it will do NO upkeep for that turn and whatever players are holding those assets will be hit with the upkeep instead.
I also want to make it possible to construct new units and structures via the guild bank. I haven't looked into that yet but it should be easy enough. On the construction queue page, you will simply have a flag to build whatever it is through the guild bank, if you are a guild leader. Again, if the guild bank cant cover every new asset in this way, then it will hit the corp instead.
The guild bank cannot go into debt, if it can't cover the cost of something it simply won't cover it. Deleting a guild will dump the bank onto the last player. If we allow direct withdrawal by guild leaders to their corps then that won't be a problem however having a guild leader simply steal all the money and run is going to be a possibility.
The guild does NOT have its own set of logistics and you will not be able to offload your logistical burden onto the "Guild" in any way through the guild bank. HOWEVER.... the idea of giving all guild members a bonus to logistics based on the membership in the guild is a legitimate idea. Might be paid account membership only to mitigate abuse though.
That's the current whiteboard plan I'm working on right now. Let me know what you think
edited by DrDread on 8/20/2018
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Vulpex Posts: 390
8/20/2018
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Wow nice!
So regarding income - I would strongly support the idea of making it based on profits but then allowing individual members to make additional contributions as they see fit. That essentially covers all cases on how a guild should raise cash. I don't mind the idea of being able to get to 100% tax rate in a single turn but then again I do not particularly mind it not being able to happen either. You need to trust a little the folks you are in a guild with.
The bank paying all or nothing is fine and dandy!
About the flagging of assets as guild assets just to clarify:
You say it covers military (units) and structures - does structures refer only to military structures or also to production and manufacturing structures?
The idea of giving guild members a bonus to logistics is a good idea in that it gives an incentive for folks to collaborate in guilds which is good for everyone involved.
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jimbobdaz Posts: 83
8/20/2018
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Sounds great so far, i agree with Vulpex in that a set tax based on profit but with the option to pay lump sums as you wish will do the job nicely... ref the logistic bonus, would this be a single set bonus while you are in a guild or would it be possible to have some kind of scaling based on mil power/industry or wealth of the entire guild? maybe prestige could have some influence on this in the future?
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LunaMoth Posts: 47
8/20/2018
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Vulpex wrote:
The idea of giving guild members a bonus to logistics is a good idea in that it gives an incentive for folks to collaborate in guilds which is good for everyone involved.
I like this idea of collaborating to have bonus logistics--maybe something to offset overcrowding so that it is less detrimental for guild members to produce resources in the same spot. Otherwise, I imagine there would be less incentive to share your wealth with your guild mates, which would make recruiting new members difficult. To a small corp, it might just seem like you're funding the military of the guild officers. The guild structures could be used as a way to improve the logistics. But it could be complicated for guilds with corps on separate planets, systems, sectors, etc.
edited by LunaMoth on 8/20/2018
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Doctor Dread Administrator Posts: 1478
8/20/2018
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I plan to make it so you can put Military or Production structures as guild assets. It makes more sense for military, and it might come out first but theirs no reason to not allow it for factories as well.
Logistics bonus for guilds is precarious and it might take some thought as to how to implement that. Simple membership count would invite 100 fake accounts unless it only counted paid guild members. But then the non paying players would be second class citizens in the guild space. Maybe that's a good thing. Maybe only paid account can be in guilds but being in a guild offers bonus to the entire guild. As long as the guild bonuses, logistics or otherwise are minor and don't exceed the philosophy of "Its not pay to win because paying only gives you 5-10% advantage"
I wouldn't lower overcrowding because that's a tricky and expensive real time thing. I can adjust logistics bonus to every one in the guild based on something pretty static like your existing levels or existing logistics. One day when we make it so you can put levels into logistics those players would be worth more in a guild. The bonus that everyone in the guild gets is based on the sum of all logistics in the guild maybe. But it cant be much. A guild of 10 level 10 players might get a 10% bonus of logistics? and even that sounds huge. It might be better to base guild logistics bonus against guild placement. The top guilds get bonus logistics for being the biggest guilds, by whatever measure I'm not sure. Even if I did the top 10 guilds by existing levels of its members or something. The top #1 guild would get a 10% boost, second would get 9% etc. That would prevent it from being abusive.
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LunaMoth Posts: 47
8/20/2018
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I was thinking the added logistics would be something a guild buys in steps, rather than requiring a certain number of members. It could be 1 billion for 1%, 10 billion for the next %, etc. or something with a growing scale and a low upper limit like 10%--it would be a "maxed" guild. Having more members working together would make it easier to collect funds. Having alt accounts would not make it any easier since the efficiency of operating alts goes down as you make more of them. I don't think it should be based solely on guild ranking--that could be a different bonus.
There could also be quests that you need to go on to unlock certain guild features or percentage brackets.
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Wreith42 Posts: 58
8/21/2018
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I would recommend a Guild Vote to change the tax rate.
Also, I would make the flagging of units like a contract, where the guild leader tries to flag a unit and the unit's owner has to accept. Just to avoid abuse
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Harkon Posts: 4
8/24/2018
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I dont want to be taxed by my own guild for some amonout of taxes that i have not aggreed to, because it can ruin my economy if the taxation is to high, so i would like to see a feature in guild where guild leader would tax specific guild members but the guild members will have an option in guild to confirm the taxation or even cancel it at specific times if your balance is in minus. These way every time you would be taxed in guild or the guild taxation changes by certain % you would get notified and would need to confirm the guild leader taxation. So there would not be a need for guild taxation cap i would set it to go even up to 80%.
edited by Harkon on 8/24/2018
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Doctor Dread Administrator Posts: 1478
8/28/2018
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Harkon wrote:
I dont want to be taxed by my own guild for some amonout of taxes that i have not aggreed to, because it can ruin my economy if the taxation is to high, so i would like to see a feature in guild where guild leader would tax specific guild members but the guild members will have an option in guild to confirm the taxation or even cancel it at specific times if your balance is in minus. These way every time you would be taxed in guild or the guild taxation changes by certain % you would get notified and would need to confirm the guild leader taxation. So there would not be a need for guild taxation cap i would set it to go even up to 80%.
edited by Harkon on 8/24/2018
Are you one of those "Voluntary Association" people? =)
I can envision setting the tax rate differently for different members, like the guild leaders might set themselves at a higher tax rate then the smaller members (because that has totally happened in real world history). But adding an approval process on top of that is getting a little crazy. Not allowing the tax rate to change quickly and notifying when it does is probably as crazy as it will get
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Harkon Posts: 4
8/28/2018
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Well if the guild taxation is to high it can hurt your income and you can go in minus and go bankrupt if your offline during that period, you would need to constantly login to check on the guild taxation. Idea is pretty nicely designed to satisfy all players guild leader and members no need to bash on other peoples ideas if you dont't like it.
edited by Harkon on 8/29/2018
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Vulpex Posts: 390
8/29/2018
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Harkon wrote:
Well if the guild taxation is to high it can hurt your income and you can go in minus and go bankrupt if your offline during that period, you would need to constantly login to check on the guild taxation.
edited by Harkon on 8/29/2018
The moment you stop making profits guild tax stops. So guild tax can never force you to go into the red if implemented like this - it would (slightly) reduce your overall income but that should not be a problem.
In addition a good guild structure can actually remove some of you maintenance costs by assigning units and structures to the guild.
The more I read this thread the more I like the idea - it makes it such that guilds are given some additional advantages but not entirely without risks to the players.
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Steffstoff Posts: 22
8/29/2018
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I like the Guild bank idea very much. Thanks for working on this Dread!
My thoughts...
Please let the Guild bank be a megastructure which the guild leader has to settle down first! 
With such structure every guild would have a kind of guild money base. Later on we could think about cyber- or physical attacks to steal the guild money. With such a concept we could even implement guild storage, which could have very less or no storage cost, but can be plundered by others.... if undefended. 
Two important things, which we should have to keep in mind generally.
- When a guild member can put all his money into the guild bank before he do a sneaky attack, he can avoid the punishment cost for that.
- Logistics bonus sounds nice too. May you can shift the logistic points to the guild bank too? Or we create a new mega structure which gives guild logistic points. If the guild bank has enough money, the upkeep costs and logistic points will handled by the guild bank / guild logistic center. There we have a nice guild bonus for members. Is't it?
edited by Steffstoff on 8/29/2018
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Doctor Dread Administrator Posts: 1478
8/30/2018
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Im not sure if a guild megastructure is a good idea, you're putting the guild features behind a paywall of sorts. If you want to attack a guild bank we can make it be the Corp HQs of the leaders. There was an old idea of being able to attack Corp HQs for a percentage of their money, we can extend that to the guild bank. However it seems really easy to dump your bank an the last round of combat I can "freeze" banks when they are in combat but that get a little tricky also. (this is why it never got implemented) you would need to declare "In combat" as being there are still units in attack mode at the end of the turn after combat so people cant suicide single level 1 infantry units to force "In Combat"
I DO want to make a capture mechanic, as in I take all your standing product and ITEMS from a location, if attack you at a location and wipe you out, all the product and items at that location immediately switch ownership to the highest military power corp. That would be a full blown version of the "Raid" mechanic in place now and it would allow item grabs.
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Steffstoff Posts: 22
9/1/2018
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Im not sure if a guild megastructure is a good idea, you're putting the guild features behind a paywall of sorts.
Perhaps and depends on the price. But I think there is a positive aspect too and it would lead fresh player to established guilds and / or brings more team play. And I think it's a challenge and a goal for new payers too. It's fun and a kind of mid-term target to gather enough money for an own guild bank or for leveling this structure up. As a said a bonus with each level makes it more interesting and let the members stick together for a mutual goal.
However it seems really easy to dump your bank an the last round of combat I can "freeze" banks when they are in combat but that get a little tricky also. (this is why it never got implemented) you would need to declare "In combat" as being there are still units in attack mode at the end of the turn after combat so people cant suicide single level 1 infantry units to force "In Combat"
Yeah that's an issue. How about a fee - to the system - for the money transfers out of the guild bank?? 
- If Guild bank megastructure hp >1 the attacker will get 10% (tbd) from the guild bank account automatically transferred. Probably you can use the monster bounty screen / mechanic.
I DO want to make a capture mechanic, as in I take all your standing product and ITEMS from a location, if attack you at a location and wipe you out, all the product and items at that location immediately switch ownership to the highest military power corp. That would be a full blown version of the "Raid" mechanic in place now and it would allow item grabs
I saw your thread but didn't read it by now. I'll do it later on when I have more time. Sounds very interesting.
edited by Steffstoff on 9/1/2018
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